Tantra Vrs. Celibacy

Pathways to Enlightenment



<_NYKE_> Hi Gina!

<^gina^> sorry I appear to be late
I forgot about day light saving ...
clocks went back an hour 
<Reiki2u> hello gina

<susanrose> 
Gina, our host is from New Zealand.  She is an author,
Teacher and former Buddhist nun.  As a formerly 
celibate nun, and now married at present,
I thought she would be an excellent person to lead 
This topic. Let's all say where we are from 
tonight and give Gina a chance to catch her breath!
I am in Pittsburgh PA, USA

<Reiki2u> St. Louis
<MrFixIt> Windsor, Ontario
<Joyful> Hubert NC
<Alita> Orlando, FL,
<_NYKE_> Buenos Aires Argentina
<goanna{> I am in Adelaide south Australia
<oldgold> Salt Lake City
<reality_> Oklahoma City, OK
<avirtue> near Niagara falls, NY, USA
<^Dove^> Newport News, VA, USA
<Jackie> Boulder Colorado USA
<Norma> Buenos Aires Argentina
<joeyem> Cleveland Ohio, 
and here for the first time

<susanrose> Thank you everyone...
let's proceed with Gina's Topic tonight...
"Tantra Vrs. Celibacy, Pathways to Enlightenment" 

<^gina^> welcome everyone
The word Tantra literally means rule of ritual.
There are certain mystical and magical works, 
who worship the female power, Shaki, Devi or 
Durga and Kali, Shiva's wife.

This female energy is also known as Kundalini. 
This energy is often seen and used as purely 
sexual and not in it's true form. 
True form is the transformation of the physical 
human mind into a Cosmic mind, 
the bringer of great inner peace.

A story I once heard in relation 
to this pure energy is a great example.
Once there was a Tibetan Lama who practiced 
meditation and was thought of, as being highly realized.  
He was often silent and inward looking. 

Other monks held him up as an example of what 
long hard hours of meditation could do in one lifetime.
One day the Lama called for a wisdom woman.  
(These women are trained from a young age 
in all the sexual moves of Tantra.)  

When the other monks heard that the Lama 
wanted a wisdom woman they talked amidst 
themselves, saying that maybe they had it wrong.  
Maybe he was not as realized as everyone thought. 
He was envied by all. 
The monks were all gathered one morning 
in the courtyard of the Gompa (temple).  

A young monk looking skywards spied the Lama 
on the roof where he stood in silence 
looking down upon the monks.  
Calmly he lifted his robes and urinated 
down upon the heads of the group below.

However, before the urine touched any heads 
he then drew it back up into himself.
By this act he showed that he had used 
the wisdom woman to learn to draw 
the essence high up into him self.

The first part of the discussion is;
how did this monk achieve the act of 
drawing his body fluids back within himself?

Today in the West we are seeing many 
different eastern religions bring their beliefs 
and actions into our everyday world.  

^^tj^ Was the Lama seeking wisdom, 
or just having fun with Wisdom Woman?

<gina>Tantra has often been seen as a sex orgy 
rather than a dance with the Universal energy. 
The Kama Sutra is a fine example.
The Tantric practice using a partner 
can be beneficial to both parties, however, 
let us look at what can also take place 
if one partner is unaware.

There is a belief with some of the different 
Tantric orders that the energy can be transferred 
through your breath as well 
as through emitting your life force in orgasm.      
however they enter an altered state 
and the sexual act can continue for hours without 
ejaculation to answer that question tj
the Lama could not have drawn his body fluids 
back into himself if he had not reached 
a very high state of consciousness

I once was speaking with a Sikh 
who passed these kind words onto me.  
You don't cut your wrist to bleed to death. 
And that one-drop of seaman was equal 
to 500 drops of blood.  

In essence he was saying sex is fine, 
in moderation, however, the more you retain 
your seed the greater the realization you will obtain.

This could be a problem if you are married.  
People ask me if one should stop their 
sexual activity while meditating or 
practicing some form of Tantra. 

I feel that one needs to conserve their energy, 
however, there is no need to stop relationships. 
If you are already in a good relationship 
and you feel able to discuss your needs 
with your partner, then you could 
have the bases of a Tantric relationship.

I spent many years meditating without a partner.  
My Kundalini awakened and the energy was very strong.  
Over the years since the awakening 
I have experienced further rises of energy 
and body temperature. Some five years after 
the initial awakening I meet my husband.  
People seemed to think that I was not so 
enlightened as I had found a man.

I can tell you that I had to really 
look at all the beliefs systems before 
I consented to start the relationship.  
We actually spent the first year together 
without a sexual relationship.  

Being a healer from birth and using the 
energy to help other people has always 
been my first and foremost consideration.

<Alita> Why is everything so focused 
on the male ejaculation process?

<^gina^> because in the old systems 
men were taught that only they held the seed of life
in actual fact we all hold the essence of 
life within ourselves

<Alita> Odd that they were taught 
they had the seeds of life 
when all life springs from women???
<^gina^> in the old system only men 
could have evolved
women were told to practice and 
hope for a male body in the next life time
<Alita> The men were taught a myth 
as the female body is superior in every respect...
Especially the fact that their reproductive organs 
are encased in a bony pelvis.

<avirtue> You are saying a tantric sexual act
...is a means in seeking higher consciousness?
<^gina^> yes avirtue 
<avirtue> ok..as this is happening to me
and I had no idea what was going on
ooh well now finding a balance..but last week 
my hubby and I seem to b in a tantric sync 
we didn't have to have an orgasm
<^gina^> I feel that when a woman response 
to a male it excites him to much and that 
can make him waste his seed early
<avirtue> our experience ..we felt closer"..

<^gina^> it has always been taught that women 
were not really of use to the planet
<MrFixIt> geesh
<^gina^> I know there are a lot who can say differently
Today we know that women are changing 
their consciousness as fast...if not faster than males
there is an understanding that the female aspect 
was nearly removed from Christianity and the bible
<Alita> Could it be that women are actually 
the holders of the consciousness and males 
are here merely for the experience of learning 
from the females?
<^gina^> this has now shown the Fathers 
that there is a large imbalance
<^gina^> Alita I believe that all are capable of consciousness
it depends on how much time and energy 
we put into spiritual growth
<goanna> male and female are two equal halves 
of a single mystery

<^gina^> The Universal Principle Kundalini 
or whatever other name you wish to use 
is an intelligent principle and 
knows what to do. It does not need us to direct it.   
We can benefit from the purity and subtleties 
that play within us while the energy 
is changing and growing.  
I would also like to point out that there 
will be a time when the physical body 
will lose all its consciousness.

Someone once said that we can 
not serve two Masters.  We can either be 
governed by the physical body, 
or give up the fight and allow the Soul 
to do all the directing in our life.  

This does not mean that you do not display any 
physical characteristics. 
<MrFixIt> mm...sounds like dead
<^gina^> nope mr fixit
<Jackie> explain losing consciousness?

<^gina^> Your physical ego has been 
attained through life times of hardship 
pain and sorrow.  There are also the joyous 
and quiet life times lived without a lot of trauma.  
All goes into making us what we appear 
in the world to be today.

Losing the body consciousness does have 
some advantages, 
one being endless energy. 
The disadvantage is not knowing 
when the body is not functioning correctly 
until you need hospitalization. 
You will not need to concern yourself 
when this occurs as all is taken care 
of in the world for you.  

I feel that if you try to turn away 
from your natural instincts and urges 
you will only put more energy into the 
lack rather than getting on with your 
spiritual growth.  

For some the path should be walked with a partner, 
while others will walk through life alone.
<oldgold> and that can change.
<^gina^> did that explain it for you jackie???



<Jackie> we will lose all physicality 
eventually is what you meant, gina?
<^gina^> you can still function 
in the physical world
you function as a spiritual person 
rather than being very physical in your out look
The human body id given to us 
to allow us to experience emotions
to experience pain
love happiness and all the other parts 
of our nature that help us to grow

I also feel very strongly that 
we are each placed in the right place 
at the right time for whatever 
level of transformation to take place.
Inner peace is worth more than wealth 
and other ego sustaining conditions.
Giving your energy freely will open 
you to receiving an abundance of energy.
Energy can be taken from a person through sex 
leaving the partner like a rag doll.
Inner peace is worth more than wealth 
and other ego sustaining conditions.

<goanna{> We are already timeless spirits. 
that is our reality
but for some reason we find it needful 
to have mortal bodies for a time
shouldn't we concentrate on that?
<Susanrose. Yes, We are spirits learning how
to be human, but that may or may not include
a physical expression of our sexuality.

<susanrose> I can feel stuck with 
other's energy even if the relationship 
does not work out.  
It takes me a long time to sort out the energy
<^gina^> often you can find certain men use women 
sexually to obtain the energy
<oldgold> You know when the energy is right.
<^gina^> I feel integrity is a must in relationships
we must remember that energy is endless 
and not just restricted to the physical level

<susanrose> frankly, I don't think I could 
have a tantra partner without falling in love... 
that feeling of sharing heaven would be too bonding... 
<avirtue> true :)
<^gina^> I agree with you susanrose
<avirtue> so I guess since I do healings..
living a spiritual life..
that my awakening to tantric energy just happened
<^gina^> Its really important that people 
approach sex with the right mind set
yes it would avirtue
Also, it would continue 
to awaken you on higher levels of 
consciousness as you take the levels 
aboard and use them
I think that the energy has endless 
levels for us to tap

<avirtue> when on is engaged in tantric sex..
and your Kundalini super wakens up...
what shall one do??..I heard it can be dangerous 
if u don't know how to move the Kundalini energy
<^gina^> avirtue nothing is dangerous about 
Kundalini other than your own fear
<avirtue> ah ok..actually my hubby had this concerned :)
<^gina^> when you use the energy it brings 
in more at higher states of consciousness
then it changes your reality
I think using the energy for sending healing to 
Others is a great way to keep the balance


<oldgold> At what point in abstinence 
does the higher state set in?  
After a week or so,  
or is this a long term commitment?
<^gina^> oldgold a week or two would not 
make much difference
<Pahana> I don't think its the level of abstinence 
so much as the degree to which you're able to transform 
and use the energies you already have
<^gina^> right pahana
I found that when my energy was absolutely balance 
that I attracted both male and females to me
I was not consciously putting it out into the world
they were drawn to the energy
<Pahana> hmmm... that would have been disconcerting :)
<Sanna> if you are attracted to the person, 
it shouldn't matter what gender the body is.

<Jackie> does frustrating sex stifle spiritual growth?
<^gina^> no jackie....but it can make 
your thoughts go in different directions
Frustrated with your partner?...
then do something about it
make it the way you want it to be
celibacy does not help one become enlightened
it actually pushes sex to the 
front of the thought process

<susanrose> 
Although am NOT choosing to be celibate, 
I think it possible to be in a very exalted 
enlightened state without thinking about sex

I used to put too much 
value into tantra until one day God told me ... 
you want orgasms... let's give her orgasms... 
how many do you want? as many as the flowers 
in the fields or as many as blades of grass 
in the lawn? let's give her what she wants... 
then I realized that god's joke on me 
was that the energy was all abundant and omnipresent.... 
and that the ecstasy was 
in the bliss of the moment of now...
this is when it occurred to me that celibacy 
and tantra could be one in the same... 
if you follow that the wonder 
of the moment is the real goal of both...

<joeyem> If you're single, and looking, 
it forces you to define yourself, 
therefore growth, and better ability 
to find that person in your life.
The more desire, sexually, 
I have, the more spiritual I've become 
That person is out there...
<Reiki2u> I am single and NOT looking...
since becoming spiritually aware, 
I do not have a sexual desire...
are you saying that this is unhealthy?
<^gina^> not at all reiki2
I think that its important that each person 
does what is comfortable for them
<Reiki2u> I am not saying my "normal" 
is not for everyone, 
I am just saying that is how I feel 
today and that is okay  :)

<susanrose> I think one can be a bride to amazement ... 
<joeyem> Bride to amazement?

<susanrose> 
"When it's over 
I want to say all my life 
I was a bride married to amazement."
Poet, Mary Oliver wrote that.
Sometimes I get into some bliss highs 
that are better than sex.
Think of times you were blissed out to the max.
<oldgold> for me, it's through music.
<joeyem> Having desire is normal, 
not having it is not
If I lose desire it would be awful 
<Reiki2u> I disagree
my normal is not your normal.
<Pahana> joeyem... the same energy used in desire 
can be sublimated by alchemy into spiritual 
energy or creativity... 
that's the whole idea of tantra
<oldgold> circumstances alter my states of desire 
<goanna> well does the human body have cycles, 
so desire rises and falls 
<susanrose> joey... I am feel desire, 
but there are times that one can springboard 
past physical desire... it is not that desire 
is lost but just a pale version of 
a ecstasy that is so much more fulfilling
and pleasurable.
Some religions have sold us what I believe to
Be a falsehood.  That is that denial of the
Pleasures of flesh is what you need to be spiritual.
But they leave off the explanation that the 
Union with spirit can be like a cosmic
Orgasm that is about 100 times more pleasurable
Than what can be experienced by your 5 senses alone.
While in this consciousness even eating an orange 
is an incredibly loving and sensual act.

<^gina^> Blissed out through meditation susanrose?
<susanrose> well, it is not through discipline,
but more like expanding the spirit of joy.
... music can help... sometimes I would sing 
on the way to work.. and then I would feel so
at one with life that I start blessing 
light posts and fire hydrants, 
cracks in the sidewalk, litter, just everything
in my line of vision looked so wonderful...
The feeling was like being at the last game 
Of the world series and having your team hit
The winning run on the final pitch.

<avirtue> :):)
Jackie grins
<oldgold> I'd like an hour on your high, SR 
<susanrose> I am not there all the time, but
I seem to have enough practice at it to be able to
Get back into that pleasurable state when I set myself
into that groove.
I know it sounds like bipolar psychosis,
but I really did go about the practical 
activities of life at the same time.
Think about the incredible amount of wasted
Energy and creativity when your head space
is taken up with the ups and downs of a 
relationship that is coming or going.
It is an incredible roller coaster ride that can
Distracts your attention span and drain you.
No wonder it makes you feel tired.

When I can connect with this pleasurable
State of universal energy, creativity,
productivity increases, and I have so 
much energy I am
Not tired at all.

The following is a quote from the book
The Woman of Wyrrd, by Lynn Andrews.
It is a dialog between a sexy yet physically celibate
magician who is explaining the benefits of
his life style to the romantic heroine.

"Can you imagine having that orgasmic feeling 
throughout a great part of your life, 
not just for a moment? ... That is how I
live my life.    If you were to feel 
such a feeling for days on end, Catherine, 
would you want to 
give it up for an earthly love?

I thought about what he was saying.  
No, I would not Charles.  I
cannot imagine how wonderful it
would be if I had that kind of energy and possibility 
In my being...  Think of all the healing you could do,
perhaps all of England.

Perhaps Catherine, you really understand  
I hope you truly understand this is not a trick.  
I felt that I must come to you 
and share this gift with you so 
that you would understand that 
it is something that you can find in your life. 
You can attain what I have attained,.  Anyone can.
...If you take an earthly husband, 
you cannot reach these heights, because you 
will need to use your energy and attention 
for earthly endeavors.
You can still do great things, however.  
Perhaps this is not your path
It is only for you to know."

<Susanrose>
Well folks, my plan is to NOT choose
between Celibacy and Relationship.
I guess I want it all.
I am without a relationship until I can find
a compatible partner,
who can surf the wave a bliss with me.
Skilled enough to help keep both
Of us from "Wiping out", and drowning
in a sea of emotions and dependence.
Someone who can go to the bliss place
and share it with me while
I have taken myself there too.
Someone who can romantically be **in love**
yet permitting enough space or both of us 
to reach our highest creative 
potential.

*Note: In anyone reading this later
has been successful at maintaining such
a relationship, please e-mail me
and I will edit your comments into this log.
***Note: the following was added post meeting:


JESHUA through JUDITH COATES   from   Jeshua Talks About Sex

QUESTION = Jeshua, what about sex? Is it like a life force? 
I was trying to understand it in a broader sense.

The expression of sex upon this plane 
is to be seen as part of the process 
of remembering the wholeness that you are, the Love that you are. 

For as two are joined in the feeling of expressing love 
in a physical way, there can be an extension of the Love 
that you are unto the other one.

And as one experiences the ecstasy of the physical orgasm, 
it is upon this plane an experience that would be as 
the tip of the iceberg as to the energy that you are in totality: 
the energy of unlimitedness, of blending into the total Self 
of the energy that is so expressive 
that it goes beyond what the mind can comprehend.

The act of sharing the physical feeling of what is termed sex 
upon this plane is one that serves in the process of remembrance 
for it allows two seeming individuals to come together 
and to share the feeling of the emotion of love. 
The act is not always shared in an atmosphere of love, 
but in its best form there is the expression of love, 
the selfless love, for you would give unto the other 
the very energy that you are, and yet, 
you cannot give it away for you are the other as well; 
there is no separation. And in the very act of the sexual union 
at what has been termed the climax, the very highest point, 
there is symbolized the unlimitedness of the energy that you are 
as it can be experienced upon this plane.

Many get caught into the feeling of the physicality of it 
and want to re-experience that over and over and over, 
forgetting that it is as a messenger 
that would show unto you how much more you are. 

It is a calling forth from a very deep level 
of the remembrance of the energy that you are.
And in the act itself, there is a moment of remembering 
that there is much more. 
This is why it is so desired to re-experience 
it over and over and over. 

And yet, 
it is to know that that energy can be felt and experienced 
and connected with in a oneness that you are 
not only through the sexual act but through 
the very experience of the oneness that you are. 
It need not come through the sexual union. 
This is one way. This is the way that mankind has found 
it most accessible, but it can be experienced in other ways 
as well, and as one is broadening the horizon of experience, 
one finds that there are other moments where 
the ecstasy will be felt and yet there has not been 
the juxtaposition of the two bodies.
(This was added to the log, for more info 
about Jeshua, see http://home.earthlink.net/~jjeshua/.)

<Jackie> thank you gina...
very interesting session.
<^gina^> I hope this has talk has helped in some way
<avirtue> thank u so much gina!! :):)
<goanna{> good nite all
<Reiki2u> yes, thank you gina...
I have much to think about!  :)
<Pahana> *shrug* gave me a chance to attend for 
part of the session anyway.  
I haven't been here in ages
<oldgold> Thanks Gina and Susanrose.  Good night.
<^gina^> nite oldgold nite all
<^Witelite> g'night Susan..
<avirtue> it has been quite helpful 
thanks {susanrose}
light love joys! :)



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